First things first, everyone reading this blog….let me (Brad) make an introduction. A number of the posts here have been from a very dear friend of mine named Natalie. This blog originated as a joint place for a group that we are a part of that has these kinds of discussions by way of e-mail. We thought moving to a blog would allow us to manage threads better, etc. Well, Nat and I are the only ones who ever posted anything. HA HA. Now, that’s not a slam against our friends!!! The e-mail conversations continue, not as often as we’d like, but we’re still tight. A number of my friends wanted me to make some of my thoughts public, and a decision was made that this blog would become “mine”. HOWEVER, Natalie makes me think, and I want her involved. She has her own blog, but expect to see her as a regular here on mine.
Okay, Introduction over.
Now, Natalie, you wanted a response. Here’s mine. It was long enough, I thought it would be best to create it as its own topic.
What you lay out in the beginning of your post is something that comes straight from your Dad. I miss him. He and I used to talk about this all the time. God is not a vending machine. Faith is not a magic coin. You put the faith coin in the slot, pull the right plunger and **POOF** out comes the blessing candy bar. Even the “Sinner’s Prayer” – Lord, I’m a sinner, come into my heart – is consumer related. With the prayer itself being the magic coin. Now, before anyone comes to lynch me for sounding like personal salvation isn’t important, just hold off a second.
In the great commission, Jesus said that we are to go out and make disciples – learners. He did not say, “Go out and tell people that they have to ask me into their heart, and then they will be Christians.” So, I ask this question….Is it possible that one can become a learner of Christ’s way, and apply those lessons to one’s life without stepping over some magical “line of faith”? So, where does salvation come into it? The scripture tells us that Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Great, what are we saved from? Ourselves? Hell? Those who aren’t Christian? The salvation is from our state of being! It is from our fallen separation from God!
So, we are saved by grace through faith from this separation from God. As disciples we will be learners of Christ’s way. Once we learned everything, we’re done, right? That’s called holiness. We never stop learning. Therefore, we are never completely holy. And, my opinion, if anyone says they’re holy, they’re a hypocrite. OW, OW, my Nazarene blood cells are bursting in my veins. OW, OW, OW!!!! So, God says in Leviticus, “Be holy, because I am holy.” I need to do a word search in my Interlinear to find out what the exact form of “be” is there. But, then in Hebrews 12, the writer says, “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy”. Holy is something we have to make an effort to be.
In reference to questions 2 and 7 in your post, Nat, I’d say: There are not different levels of salvation, and if there are it’s not our concern. There are, however, different levels of holiness. But, just like salvation, it’s not our concern. We should aspire to be holy. Our actions will either be holy, not holy, or somewhere neutral. I would claim that the more we aspire to learn the way of Christ, to become more Christlike, our holiness will increase. I have not yet been fitted with my holiness meter chip, so I can’t tell you how holy I am or not. And because I can’t see your holiness meter, I can’t make a judgment whether I’m holier than thou or not.
So, is there a difference between being saved and being a Christian? Excellent question. If we are living in the way of Christ, and that means obeying his commandments and learning his “style”, and that means we are Christians, then there really isn’t a difference. If being saved means that from some magical point in my life where I said a prayer….then never again considered my actions or considered what the prayer meant…then there is a significant difference. I do not believe that our salvation is a one-time deal. I believe it is something we work out with fear and trembling. The Holy Spirit leading us into truth convinces and convicts us. So, if we have sin(s) in our life…..pick your favorite….and God works on one, bringing us to perfection in that area through our actively seeking to apply his way….but we continue to have another sin that God has not worked on yet, are we still approaching holiness? (and this is not linear…don’t put God in a box.)
BOOM – You get hit by a bus. You find yourself standing in front of Jesus being judged. “You are not completely holy. You still have areas of your life that I haven’t had a chance to work on, yet. There is no place for you here.” What do you think?
Are there dangers with this thought pattern? Sure. Doesn’t this promote sinning because you can deal with it later? ABSOLUTELY….let’s go out and sin more so that God’s grace will abound!!!! (For those of you reading this, who don’t know your Bible…read Romans…this is sarcasm/satire.) I am all for God making miraculous changes in one’s life. In fact, I deeply desire that he will make such changes in mine. However, experience has shown me that even the most broken souls grow over time into the truth that is God. A very good friend of mine, I met nearly 20 years ago. He was very “rough around the edges”, worked in a mill, and has now retired to run a food bank. Over the years, the Holy Spirit has softened those edges, given him a true heart for others, and completely changed him. But it wasn’t immediate. Miraculous….maybe…but not instantaneous.
Okay, I have to stop now….too many things going on. I will hit on some of the other questions later. Especially the topic of grace….one of my favorites. Hopefully, this will be a good teaser to what else I have to say.
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14 comments:
OK, Brad. So you have given this topic some thought, good. I'm glad I am not the only one. The response that I want to be able to give will have to wait, and possibly be in its own blog for the sake of space. Right now I don't have time though, so it will have to come later this week. Thanks for the repsonse and I will get to this as soon as I can!
I don't know about the Hebrew, but the greek for perfect (teleiao) means perfect in the sense of complete or mature- not without fault. I think it reflects salvation as a process.
baloney
So salvation isn't just a one time thing? I get that we have to continually stive to be holy and sanctified and all that, but that is about us. What about Christ? If he died for us, to save us, and it's ultimately about him, it seems to me that it's a one time thing. And it's done. Right? If we walk in the Way of Christ, and yet we say we aren't saved once, I feel like we are saying, "thanks for trading your blood for mine, but I'm not so sure it's all I need to be saved." Let's face it, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Nat and I just talked about Salvation yesterday and it was the first time I'd ever heard anybody say that salvation isn't about the Sinners Prayer, or at least might not be. I'm all for that and open to everything that's being said, I just don't have the knowledge and background to get deep with it. Also, how does the meaning of perfect reflect salvation as a process? To me it reflects holiness as a process, right? Oh geez. Too much to think about. Oh, and what is Orthodoxy? What is Universalism? Aren't you excited you have this girl who doens't know much about theology or Scripture posting here? You're welcome :)
This is part of what community and dialog is all about though! You don’t have to have the same background or the same knowledge that we have…that would make the conversation boring. Even Brad and I vary on the way that we look at things, but these conversations help each of us to grown and allows us to wrestle with things like…well like the topic of salvation!
So, to your questions. You’re right, there is an element of what God has done that is all about him. But, the danger with where you’re line of thinking can go is to universalism, which basically means that Christ’s sacrifice means that every one WILL be saved. I believe that the benefits of atonement reach far beyond what we have defined as its boundaries, but I cannot buy completely into universalism (check this out for more info http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:universalism&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title). So, if it is all about God, meaning we do nothing to affect our salvation, than who’s to say that everyone won’t end up in heaven regardless of what they believe. This is the whole concept of “all-roads-lead-to-God.” While there is a certain appeal to that, especially to me, I have not been able to find sufficient support for this view.
One of the things that I have been thinking about is the whole concept of instant vs process for both salvation and holiness (as is evident from the posts). I think that we can say that salvation AND holiness occur as a both/and rather than an either/or. This, I believe, is the meaning of Paul’s admonition to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). There must be an element of our faith that is actually lived rather than just professed (see passages like 1 John 1:5-7, Ephesians 2:8-10, Jas 1:19-27, Jas 2:14-20). However, there is also an element of our faith that is, as you pointed out, instantaneous.
I think one area of this conversation that I haven’t given enough attention to is repentance. When we talk about being saved, many times we bring up repentance, right? The Hebrew and the Greek word that we use for repentance literally means a complete turn around. It is not simply an apology, which is why I struggle with the mentality of the Sinner’s Prayer. We have turned repentance into just an apology and a “I’ll try not to do that again” sort of a thing.
So, all of this being said, I don’t think that salvation is ever earned on our part. But what does it mean to be saved? Back to my original question, can you separate being saved from the purpose of salvation? If our purpose of salvation is to bring glory to God through the practice of redemptive relationships, and we fail to do that, are we still saved?
(This may be a little scattered…that’s what I get for trying to write while I am at work!)
Hey Terri!!! Welcome to the conversation!!!!
Okay, you bring up some good points. Let me try and hit some. Remember, I am not seminary trained like Natalie, and I'm just some guy who likes this stuff. I'm constantly learning!!! And I'm SO GLAD to have people to talk to. Iron sharpens iron!
One time thing - let's deconstruct this....does mankind have free-will? (rhetorical question) Accepting the way of Christ is a choice. So, why can't you make a decision later on to deny the way of Christ? It happens. It breaks God's heart, but it happens. However, he always keeps his eye looking up the road, and will run to you when you return, if you return. Wesley defined sin as an intentional transgression against the way of God. Ah, human intent, wonderful thing. So, salvation is something that is either continually happening, or something that happens in a whole bunch of recommitments. I would rather believe that it's a continuous process. But, you can't just "do it" and walk away and expect it still sticks.
What about Christ? He died. He rose again. His ressurection saves us....but, but, but...we still have to accept it. I struggle with this. Part of me wants to say, God saved everyone at that point...but I just can't acccept that for the very reasons I gave above. There's too much evil in the world. I could write about this for hours.
You nailed it, Terri, holiness is a process. Our dichotomous humanity gets in the way of instant holiness. Perfection is something strive for, and we will reach that point when we are dead.
As for the "Thanks for trading your blood for mine"....that's the acceptance needed. In Luke 9:23, Jesus said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself, pick up his cross DAILY and follow me." So, there is more...you have to recognize DAILY that you are following Christ. That makes Christianity hard...and salvation a process.
Does this lead to "levels" of salvation. Here's the tricky part. I don't think so. I think salvation is a process, and if you are IN that process...you're saved. I'm making this up, okay. Is it enough to say, "I prayed the sinner's prayer" but then not take care of the poor, the helpless, the widows, the whole "least of these" thing. So, I would claim that social justice is part of the process....evangelism is part of the process....living contemplatively is part of the process....striving for holiness is part of the process....recognizing and appreciating the incarnation of Christ is part of the process....and experiencing the Holy Spirt (charismatic) is part of the process.
Okay, Orthodoxy...right thinking....that's a whole blog entry right there. HA HA.
THANKS FOR JOINING THE CONVERSATION!!! THIS ROCKS!!!
Brad
I like Natalie's comments better than mine. I'm also at work, and feel a little scattered.
Thanks Brad...and yes, WELCOME TO TERRI!
So good! I really actually love thinking about salvation in the way you are presenting it. That it's not about one line of a prayer, but more like a life lived daily more like Christ BECAUSE of the faith we have.
I am totally a believer in the Grace of God. I think that his grace covers WAY MORE than we as a church or americans or whoever "we are" recongize in his majesty. For example I have heard of someone who believes that aborted babies go to hell, (wherever/whatever that is). I don't know if that person thinks it's because of the sin of their parents, or the fact that the little baby never "accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior blah blah blah," but either way is the biggest pile of BS I could ever think of. But I also have a difficult time wrapping my mind around the idea that a person who lives out the fruit of the Spirit, or loves the way Christ would have us love, yet has never realized or accepted or whatever that Christ came to save them by taking their place on the cross, that they are Christians. But maybe they aren't Chrsitians but will still go to heaven? Or at least not to hell?
I love what Natalie was talking to me about yesterday, that God would have us live according to the light he has given us. So a person in Papua New Guinea who has never heard of Christ won't be "punished" by not entering into eternal life with Him because he never said the sinners prayer. I really love thinking of salvation as bringing Glory to God. God knows our hearts. He knows that the person in the African tribe that has never experienced Jesus HAS experienced love and creation and relationships and beauty. God longs for that person to be eternally with him, don't you think?
I also really like focusing on the repentance part of this discussion. Not just saying "sorry, that was wrong," but actually turning your back on what it is that you know was wrong. So what things are wrong? And what if we keep doing them even though we know they are "wrong." Does that mean you're rejecting Christ? Is it possible to reject him if you ever truly comprehend what you are accepting in the first place? I know we can't comprehend even a whisper of God-his love, grace, justice, compassion, anger, all of it-but if we truly accept him at all once, how could we ever reject him later?
Why can't you be "saved once and then just walk away and hope it sticks." If you're saved by grace through faith, that's it. But maybe it has to do more with the faith. If you really have faith, maybe that means you won't/can't walk away. Maybe it means you sorta HAVE to continually pursue Christ, holiness and his way and relationships and love. Maybe if you aren't doing those things your faith isn't real. Or maybe you're just american :P
ugh, my brain hurts. And I'm trying to really think through this and also get a million things done. I've got to stop. I might even turn off my brain for today ;P But I'm sure Nat and i will pick this up tomorrow on our drive to Denver :)
Holy Cow! Where is this part of Terri been in our convos of late? Yes, we will definately pick this up. I will post a little more in a bit because you said some AWESOME things!
So, contrary to the Hindu population....there is no particular evidence that cows are holy. **GRIN**
For example I have heard of someone who believes that aborted babies go to hell, (wherever/whatever that is). I don't know if that person thinks it's because of the sin of their parents, or the fact that the little baby never "accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior blah blah blah," but either way is the biggest pile of BS I could ever think of.
This line of thinking actually comes from medieval times, if I am not mistaken, and was part of the reasoning behind the Church’s justification for infant baptism. Salvation only came through the church and baptism was initiation into the church. Unfortunately, we have taken this to an extreme that basically says that a person who has never professed belief in Christ, personally, will never enter heaven regardless of whether the age of accountability was reached or not. This, as you stated (hehe), is a big pile of BS!
I also agree with you about the fruit of the Spirit. That is why I mentioned that last night at OTB. I think the fruit of the spirit matters more than professed belief. All good and right things come from God—he is the author or all that is true, right, good, etc. So how can someone who personifies the fruit of the spirit not have God in him. When it comes to condemnation/judgment, I think you are right. God desires that ALL men be saved, that none should perish. But I still think that it is something that, being enabled by the grace of God, we must choose. This is why I can’t buy into the once-saved-always-saved mentality. That gives license to “say a little prayer” and then do whatever the hell I want because at least I believe in God. James says—“Good for you! Even the demons believe in God and SHUDDER! What is faith without deeds?” Meaning, what is profession (or saying a little prayer) without the heart change that comes with it?
I believe that God’s grace will cover a whole lot of stuff that we could not even imagine. So, to your question, so what things are wrong? I believe anything is wrong that you feel guilty about (these might be labeled as personal sins), and anything that contradicts God’s character and desire to have us live. What happens if we know we’re doing something wrong but don’t stop? Paul talks about this…essentially, there was this belief in the time of Paul and the Apostles called antinomianism. This was a fancy way of saying that God’s grace abounds whenever we sin—therefore, to give grace ample scope to operate, we can sin as much as we want so that God gets more glory. Paul came back (Rom 6) and says, “So what? Should we keep on sinning so that grace may abound? BY NO MEANS! We have died to sin, why should we live in it any longer? We have died with Christ and been buried and God raised us when he raised Christ so that we could have NEW life.” [BTW—I preached a sermon on this once. I will find the tape so you can listen to it.]
So, do I think God’s grace will cover a multitude of sins? Yes. Do I believe that gives us license to do whatever we want, whenever we want? No. I can’t buy into that, because I know I am hurting God and others when I do whatever I want. My job is to bring honor and glory to God and when I fail at that, God helps me pick up the pieces, but I still did something wrong. It all comes back to relationships and responsibility in those relationships.
You also mentioned the passage that says we are saved by grace through faith. This passage has been massively distorted and taken out of context. Paul never meant to say that we can just say we believe that is it, we are saved. Luther realized that when Paul wrote that, that salvation wasn’t about anything that we do, but he also didn’t distort the truth that there is an element of works to our faith. Modern Christianity has failed to read the rest of the passage (and it seems even the entire book of Ephesians). The passage says “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” So, there seems to be more than just “saying a prayer and hoping it sticks.”
I do not believe that God’s grace is irresistible. I think we must constantly, daily, take up our cross, this means that we are dealing with the areas of un-christlikeness in our lives and hearts. That is the meaning of the cross that we must bear. Every day, sometimes every minute, we must die to self and choose Christ.
Whew…Ok, I am starting to get weird looks from my co-workers! I need to quit for a bit and start working again…for now!
"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
AMEN!
"I believe anything is wrong that you feel guilty about."
Really? This surprises me. I feel that guilt doesn't always come from God. I feel like there are lots of cultural morals that our society says I should follow, and when I don't I feel guilty. But those things aren't necessarily sin are they? They aren't necessarily what God would call wrong? I believe that God uses conviction differently in each person, especially with gray areas, and that can oftentimes come in the feeling of guilt. But guilt too often feels like or turns into condemnation, which isn't from God, is it? So what is sin? I've got a lot of Campus Crusade for Christ lingo ingrained in me, and they always said it was "missing the mark." Well, more like missing God's mark. And what is God's mark? Perfection. So we are daily sinning with everything we do? Or is sin going against the character of God? Which is what you were saying about picking up our inner cross of un-Christlikeness; working out salvation with fear and trembling. Or maybe I'm confusing sin and doing wrong. Maybe they are different things.
So, salvation. If I am not save only by faith. But I think I'm saved because I accept Christs death in my place. And I'm tyring to be Christlike. But more often than not I fail. How will I ever know if I'm saved?
I'm sensing a pattern emerging. (HA, an Emergent pattern!)
Picture if you will....
Salvation is a process. If you belive in Christ, and accept the grace that is given, and move toward a more Christlike way in your life, you're saved. If you move OUT of that process, deny Christ, and refuse the grace given freely....you aren't saved.....and then if you decide to accept it all again and get back IN to the process...you're saved again. The point here is that you have to VOLUNTARILY step outside of the process.
If a saved person goes and murders a bunch of people, he/she has stepped WAY out of what God intended. (Uh, wait...all of those who assasinated presidents said they had done it because God had told them to....um....may have dug a hole I can't get out of.)
It can't be once saved always saved.
Now, in a different post, or maybe it was this one...this is now a month old. I'm not as young as I used to be. Anyway, in a previous post, I had given an example of a person getting hit by a bus and Jesus saying, "There are still things I'm working on with you...sorry....not in." I think that if we are in process and genuinely seeking Christ's way...he knows.
So, how do we know we are saved. We can only accept the grace given to us, and accept that as we continue on the path, sincerely, genuinely disciping ourselves in Christ, we're saved. But it's still a journey, unfortunately without a clear destination. The destination is a state of being!!! Eternally communing with the Father!!! THAT will be heaven!
Good comments Brad! And Terri...I think I should have said convicted not guilty. Conviction would have cleared up about half of what I confused.
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